How many who have left JFJ staff were labeled "Unstable or Mentally ill?"
It is absolutely frightening!
What is funny, is that when we were on JFJ staff WE BELIEVED THE RUMORS!
Sometimes we even convinced ourselves that "Something Must Be Wrong With Me."
Nothing is wrong with me or you!
Something is wrong with Jews for Jesus.
http://www.exjewsforjesus.org/
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24 comments:
I read with great interest "A Dream". The one about Moishe chasing you? And you don't think you may have some mental instability? Or, you blame Moishe Rosen for your fears? Whatever happened to not blaming others and taking responsibility for oneself. If you are that fragile emotionally, I suggest you some help. I don't say this is a hostile and viscious way. I truly think you need help. I also doubt you'll publish this on your site.
The person who posted "A DREAM" is not the same person who started this topic of "labels and JFJ." What I see here in the comment above is typical of the JFJ mentality: accusing and making assumptions about people and trying to figure out who to blame and who to hurt.
I'm sorry, but this seems to be the 'pat' answer to anyone disagreeing with you. The JFJ 'mentality'. I just finished reading Robyn's story. I've met Robyn a couple of times. She is extremely emotional, rebellious (not just with JFJ) and has one heck of a temper. I've also recently seen her on forums with JFJ. Please, how can anyone read her story and not realize how emotionally fragile she is. Not to mention that she keeps going back to JFJ. They're right in not taking her back on staff. It would be detrimental to her and them. I also know that because of her emtional problems, she has trouble holding ANY job. AND, I also know that they hold no ill will towards her, are respectful and kind to her every time that she's been in contact with them. I've personally witnessed this.
I don't say there aren't valid complaints about the way JFJ operated, especially in the earlier days. I worked there and experienced them for myself. But you guys just can't get over this pity party your into and you harbor so much hate and bitterness that's it eats you up inside.
Moishe has apologized for past behaviour, but you guys don't print that. Instead, you answer by saying there's an ulterior motive for his apologies. I'm not gonna sit here and defend Moishe. He doesn't need defense from people who cannot take responsibilty for their own actions. He keeps growing in the Lord, while you in your hatred keep deteriorating. He's a man, with a vision and heart for the Lord and the courage of his convictions and with God's help, he's able to look inside himself and take responsibility for his actions. That is the side of him and JFJ that you don't tell people about.
As for you never hearing about changes in JFJ, that is a bald faced lie. You've heard them from me, but you of course never posted them. If you're goal in life is to destroy Jews for Jesus, that's a pretty sad goal and waste of a short and precious life. God help you all and have mercy on you and teach you forgiveness. You're all in my prayers and have never ceased to be in my prayers regardless of what you say. Luv, Arleen
Labeling former staff was routine. The rumors came from the top and spread downward. The subordinates believed an awful lot of what was said because they trusted their superiors and couldn't imagine how often they were deceived.
Re:msg from Arleen-
You're off the subject of this posting. Rotten, untrue rumors were spread many times about former staff. It's a fact. And you don't know anything about the inner thoughts of former staff, or for that matter, Mr Rosen. I don't know your inner thoughts, either, but my inner thoughts are that I sure wouldn't want to run into you in a dark alley.
Luv you too!
Response to Arleen,
I have found a number of things you've posted to be quite disturbing, like saying former Jews for Jesus staff are bitter and engaging in a pitty party. The truth is that there happen to be a number of support groups for former staff and a number of professional counselors and counseling ministries who have and continue to have professional counseling relationships with former Jews for Jesus staff. Some of these staff have been out of the organization for many years, some within the last five years, some within the last one or two years.
Some of these people have decided that as part of their recovery it is important to speak out, based on Scriptural principle of warning, "If the righteous hold their peace..."
The fact of the matter is that I used to be a member of this forum. That's why I'm using my name and not staying anonymous. I just don't want to join in this hate fest again. I was here long enough to realize that healing wasn't the goal of many of the people here. For some, yes, it was, but for most it is a pity party and a way to blame someone else for what they've come to believe are failures.
As for Mr. Rosen, I said earlier, I will not defend him. No need to. I have known him for many, many years. Let the Lord judge him as He will judge all of us. You are trying to destroy a ministry that is trying to win souls for the Lord. That seems to be your goal. You've been hurt, so now you're gonna destroy this ministry? Not very Christian. Why not go straight to the person or persons at Jews for Jesus and deal with this hurt and pain personally, doing it Biblically in a Christian way? You don't do that because you don't want closure or healing or forgiveness given or offered. You want to stay mad. And that is absolutely pathetic....for you. This way you don't have to take any responsibility for yourself and you can make Mr. Rosen a monster and Jews for Jesus a cult. Let me tell you something. No one can continue to abuse you unless you let them. While there are many valid complaints about Jews for Jesus, the fact of the matter is, you (we) allowed them to happen. I've been associated with JFJ for many, many years and happen to know that things have improved, people have grown, humbled and keep on going for the Lord. You want a perfect organization? Don't go on staff then, because as soon as YOU do, just like me, all our human frailties are joined to others. Yet God saves in spite of ourselves.
You will not destroy Jews for Jesus, you will only succeed in letting this cancer of hatred which comes from the enemy, to destroy yourselves. And, yes I have been in prayer for you. And, no, don't be afraid to meet me in a dark alley. I'd only get on my knees and pray for you. Arleen Getzel
You just don't get it, Arleen. Don't you think it's pathetic JFJ has to send you to be its attack dog? They spread rumors to destroy former worker's reputations and you think its a pity party to talk about it? Shame on you. God is strong enough that people can serve him in a principled way without resorting to: fleshly/worldly/sinful ways of manipulating their fellow servants. People who resort to such methods deserve to be exposed as the evildoers they are.
No, anonymous, you don't get it. LOL. Jews for Jesus SENT ME? You gotta be kidding. Anyone who knows me, knows I don't get sent. I just came back in here to see what was happening, read Robyn's story and was heartbroken that she was used like this. Jews for Jesus isn't concerned enough about this site to send ANYONB in to defend them.
It's just that you present one side. I'd like to present the other side. There are other sides you know. Stop playing 'victim'. Deal with your problems with JFJ personally, one on one if you really want closure, accountabililty and healing as the Word instructs.
I DO GET IT! I was you. I festered and kvetched and complained for years. All I hurt was myself. The Lord connected me again with Jews for Jesus and I dealt with individuals and practices I felt were hurtful. In doing so, I was healed, I forgave and most surprisingly I came to learn of my responsibility in some of the things that took place. I as also humbled by the Lord as He showed me that I had hurt people too, not just at Jews for Jesus. "He who is without sin, cast the first stone." So, I also had to ask for forgiveness.
The freedom from the hate is amazing, and what is more amazing, you start remember all the good things about the ministry and about the people you worked with and came to love. Hate blinds..love gives you back your sight and freedom. Try it...you'll like it.
Arleen Getzel
Arleen, do you know what the Stockholm Syndrome is? If not, you should look it up. It describes you perfectly.
See http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20030324.html
Listen Anonymous,
I'm not the hostage...you are! To your hate and your own failures or your self-perceived feelings of 'failure'. I'll keep you in prayer. I don't know who you are, but God does.
Arleen
Regarding this link on the Stockholm Syndrome:
http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20030324.html
Fascinating!
I do believe many who return to JFJ or side with JFJ after being hurt or abused are exhibiting symptoms of the Stockholm Syndrome.
Thank you for sharing the link!
I wasn't going to reply to last silly comment, but I just can't help myself. Unfortunately, I don't work for Jews for Jesus anymore, not even on a voluntary basis. I'm disabled and unable to.
How do you keep doing this to yourselves? How can you live in this dark place you are in? No organization makes or breaks me. My Lord and Savior Jesus is the One who keeps me. Please turn your face back towards Him so He can free you of this cancer that keeps growing in you.
Wasn't it Jesus, on the cross who said: "Father, forgive them, they know not what they do."? You really think in your arrogance and ignorance that you're complaints are this valid to harbor this much hatred? Now, Jesus, had cause to blame...He forgave. Think about it.
Stockholm Syndrome...feh! Again, you are the ones being held hostage, and not by Jews for Jesus.
Arleen:
Do you really believe the person who lost everything: his wife, van, job, friends, and house should not be angry at JFJ?
If you don't have the Stockholm Syndrome, then you must be blind or maybe just not too smart!
I think I will pray for you.
I really think it is pointless to argue in a blog with someone (I'm not arlene, by the way).
If Arlene wants to do what Jews for Jesus does, and label those who post on this blog site as being angry and bitter, unwilling to let go of the past and placing blame on Jews for Jesus for things the hurt people are supposedly responsible for (and Jews for Jesus isn't responsible for), then let her believe those things!
The truth is, there are more than enough professional counseling organizations and professional counselors and psychologists who have helped forer Jews for Jesus staff who all know the truth. That truth is that real manipulation, control and abuse did occur.
All anyone has to do is a simple websearch looking for websites that help parents of people in cults and sites that help former cult members and look at their listings of known cults. Jews for Jesus is starting to make the lists. Sometimes they are listed with a question mark ofter the name, sometime without one.
Why? Because stories of the hundreds of hurt people are starting to show up on the internet, and there have been untold numbers who have been to professionals to deal with the abuse they suffered and those professionals have been reporting to these organizations that Jews for Jesus is an abusive organization at best, a cult most likely.
How many need to speak up about the harm caused them before people stop thinking their are just a couple "disgruntled former staff"? 50? 100? 500? I know of at least 300 who tell the same stories of hurt, pain, destroyed lives, reputations, marriages.
Here's an example of a behavior that can be considered that of a cult.
A former staff member during Rosen's time had to leave the organization to move home to take care of an ailing parent. Rosen refused to allow the staff member to go home. The staff person resigned and went home anyway. During the resignation, the staff person mentioned that she wanted to start her own ministry reaching out to Jewish people somehow.
After she left Jews for Jesus staff, Rosen called up all the churches that he had contact with in her hometown (a pretty large metropolitan area) and told them not to allow her to speak on their churches because she was a lesbian!
She obviously overcame the lie Rosen told. She has a very successful ministry and a nationally televised radio program today.
That kind of slander of people AFTER THEY LEAVE Jews for Jesus is one of its halmarks.
I can't tell you how many stories I've heard from Pastors who told me they had a conversation with a current Jews for Jesus missionary, or Brickner, or Rosen, and they were led to believe that me or some other former staff was mentally ill, mentally unstable, had committed some kind of sexual, immoral sin and that THESE were the reasons the person left Jews for Jesus and shouldn't be supported in any other kind of ministry endeavor.
Moishe Rosen never did anything like that. Calling up churches and telling them someone was a lesbian. That's pure slander. You better have something to back that up. But, I know you don't.
I don't say you shouldn't be angry about being hurt. I've never said that. People have been hurt....just as you've hurt people in your life. I don't trivialize your hurts. What I criticize is your wallowing in it, spreading lies about Jews for Jesus, not accepting responsiblity for your own actions or inactions, etc.
You liken yourselves to Alchoholic Anonymous, that why you need protection and make people fill out that invasive questionnaire? People in AA accept their responsibility for their part in their addiction. How can someone like Robin post her story, how can you allow it to be posted, when this woman wants back in with Jews for Jesus. Stockholm Syndrom? Get real!
As for praying for me. Please, I need all the prayers I can get. You want to 'threaten' me with prayer, bring it on. I'll love it and appreciate you for it. I'm not your enemy...not at all. I know how important it is to vent your feelings with others who can understand.
BUT, you over-exagerate, you pretend to be a recovery group longing for healing, however, when someone at JFJ does take responsibility and apoligizes, you don't accept it. Heck, you refuse to even go to the person who affected you so badly and deal with him/her personally as the Bible dictates. You don't want recovery. I'm speaking generally here. I don't know all of you. 300 people...? You personally know 300 people? Jews for Jesus is not considered a cult by others, maybe a few groups, like anti-missionaries, etc.
Of course, you think it's pointless to argue with me. You don't want to read my posts here and you don't want anyone else to. Heaven forbid someone has something positive to say about Jews for Jesus.
Dr. Phil says about people who keep worrying about what other people think of them, or supposedly talk about them: "You'd be surprised how little they think about you." You're giving one human being, Moishe Rosen, way too much power. There is something sick about that.
You know what? I've been in and out of this group for some time now and all I keep hearing about is the same old, same old stories of olden days gone by, same old episodes of tantrums, like a broken record. Broken records are worthless..it's time to either deal with the people who hurt you one on one or get on with your lives and stop blaming others for your problems. I'm sick of this age of "victimization". If you are a child of God, and believe in Jesus, you are no one's victim. You're the victor! Live like you believe it. Walk the walk...for your own good.
PS: I think I forgot to post my name to the posting before this one. Obviously, it's Arleen Getzel.
Also re this statement:
Do you really believe the person who lost everything: his wife, van, job, friends, and house should not be angry at JFJ?
I'm very sorry for your losses, sincerely so. I know what loss is. But, honestly, are you asking people to believe that it's Jews for Jesus fault that you're relationship with your wife is over, do you have proof that you lost a job (other than the one at JFJ) because of JFJ, friends? Hello..if they were real friends, how did you lose them.
If you're going to spend the rest of your life blaming all of this on Jews for Jesus, you're in for one miserable life. I'm not suggesting it was all your fault at all, so don't even go there, but with these kinds of losses there are multiple reasons for it. I pray for you. I don't know who you are, but I'm truly sorry for your losses but mostly I'm more fearful that you will spend the rest of your life embittered and not living a victorious life as the Lord prescribes.
Arleen
Arlene, RE: Slander accusation.
I wouldn't have said that ROSEN called up churches and said someone was a lesbian if I wasn't telling the truth.
That is a documented truth.
I am not the woman in question, but Moishe Rosen told me directly that he thought I was a lesbian and thought I'd leave my husband for a certain woman. Just to be addressed like that by Moishe Rosen made me feel violated. What kind of rumors were spread about me?
To Anonymous 1: Where is this documented?
To Anonymous 2: I have no idea what the circumstances were where you say Moishe accused you of being a lesbian or when this allegedly happened. I have no idea in what context this was said, were you arguing?
There is only one valid instance years ago when one of my friend's fiancee was slandered. It was not done by Moishe Rosen. The person who did it owned up to it, apologized for it and asked forgiveness.
To the poster above (Arleen?) who says "there is only one valid instance..." And who are you, that you should know everything Moishe has said or done over the years? Were you next to him every single time he ever picked up the phone to call someone. Even his wife does not know that much. And what criteria do you use to say "valid"?
There are many people who have been hurt by this man and his comments, and yet have been strong enough to say something. There must be a hundred-fold or more others who have been hurt who don't say anything. Does anyone have as much arrogance as you to say that none of those encounters were "valid"?
I was left out of the loop!
When I left Jews For Jesus staff, I was told I had had a nervous breakdown. I didn't think I had one. No Psychiatrist said I had one. I don't believe I ever had one. How come the ex JfJ staff workers are the last to know the real reason they weren't good enough for JFJ?
There's some good resources on this site for those who are survivors of spiritual abuse. I know the focus of this site is for survivors of sexual abuse, but I think that a lot of the information would be helpful to everyone.
http://theawarenesscenter.org/spiritualabuse.html
Has anyone heard of any allegations regarding a countermissionary rabbi and sexually inappropriate behavior?
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